The separation between Church and State, is a greatly mis-understood issue, that many Christians find limiting, unfair, anti-Christian, even silly at times.

However, it is a serious issue, that has to be viewed through the lens of history and the conflicts that have occurred through the centuries, in order to grasp the implications.

Here in Canada, we have a multi-cultural society, that seeks to respect diversity. Protection is given to minority groups, so that they are not forced to abandon their distinctive beliefs, and cultural inheritance. It's far from a perfect system, and not without problems. It hasn't always worked, but lessons have been learned from the mis-treatment of native children (residential schools), and the infamous Mt. Cashel sex abuse scandal (Catholic orphanage).

In the United States, the issue is much more controversial, due to the enormous political clout of the religious right , and the melting pot approach to cultural diversity. I will draw from their experience, to illustrate a point.

Fundamentalist Christians have attacked Jewish centers, attempted to poison municipal water supplies, bombed abortion clinics, and assassinated abortion providers. The members of the Christian organizations perpetrating these crimes seem to be convinced that the forces of truth wage a perennial, cosmic battle with the forces of falsehood, and that they face the challenge of protecting Christian truth by any methods available. That they are allowing Jesus cross to become Mithras sword does not occur to them. http://www.religioustolerance.org/relhateex.htm

Jesus taught the Ethic of Reciprocity . It is often expressed as " Do onto others as you would wish them do onto you. " He also taught us to love even our enemies , but all to often, the opposite is practiced by those who claim to follow him.

" ..sometimes religion motivates violence, and sometimes it is used, even manipulated, to justify violence. There also is violence unrelated to religion that gets religiously charged because the conflicting parties happen to be of different faiths. " Rev. Shanta Premawardhana, Interfaith Relations Director for the National Council of Churches USA

There is a great deal of debate over exactly what the Founders intended by the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. Patrick Henry wrote the original draft of the First Amendment, using the words, "fullest toleration in the exercise of religion." But James Madison was determined that nothing other than "free exercise" should be written here. And he told us why: A state which could "tolerate" could also prohibit. This clause states, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

The most common interpretation of this clause, by most scholars and jurists, is based on the a letter from Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association in 1802, to answer a letter from them, asking why he would not proclaim national days of fasting and thanksgiving, as had been done by Washington and Adams before him. In this letter, Jefferson wrote the following, "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state."

It is easy to understand why Jefferson and the Founders were hesitant to mix Church and State. The Founders were all of European ancestry, and Europe had been rife with religious wars for centuries. Many states were actually run by either the Catholic Church, or a Protestant faith, especially Lutheranism.

These states tolerated little to no dissent on the subject. Individuals who refused to convert could be tortured or even killed. According to Steven Kreiss, writing for The History Guide, this is because of religious tensions, " Between 1560 and 1715, Europe witnessed only thirty years of international peace. " Many of the people, who journeyed across the Atlantic to live on the new continent, risked their lives and chose the dangers of the wilderness to escape this atmosphere of intolerance.

All of this was fresh in minds of the Founders when they were writing the Constitution. They did not want their new country to share in the fate of their European counterparts.

Add to this the persecutions that arose in the Colonies themselves. Evidence is found in the " blue laws ", still on the law books in many States, but no longer enforced.

Examples:

"The Code of Sir Thomas Dale," of 1611 (Virginia)

Dales Code has been chiefly remembered because of the penalty for blasphemy, which was the thrusting of a bodkin through the blasphemers tongue . Sabbath observance was enforced by whipping , and speaking against the Trinity or the Christian religion by death . (H. J. Eckenrode, Separation of Church and State in Virginia, 6. Richmond, 1910).

The New Haven Code of 1656

Profanation.To profane the Lords Day in a proud, presumptuous way was a capital offense.

" Christians " who are trying to tear down the wall between Church and State, are not behaving like true Christians in the Biblical sense. Ecumenism in the name of political power , is not the " unity of the Spirit " (Ephesians 4:3) that God desires.

In their great rush to oppose secularism, they have been blinded to a greater evil - apostate, persecuting, theocracy. Conservative evangelical Christians have joined forces with the power their forefathers labeled anti-Christ (Catholic Church). This is a slippery slope, back to the tyranny and horrors of the inquisitions.

Do we have to relive those experiences, and let history repeat itself, or can we learn from the lessons of history? Some say the separation, was never intended to stop the Church from controlling the State, only to keep the State from controlling the Church. However, there has never been a time in history when a Christian theocracy, did not result in persecution. It didn't matter if the Church in control was Catholic, or Protestant, intolerance of minority positions, persecution, and violence were the results.

Christ himself, was crucified by the State because it was being manipulated by the religious leaders of his day . The names and the faces have changed, but it is still the same old game - lets keep them separate.

The "establishment of religion" clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws, which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion. No person can be punished for entertaining or professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs, for church attendance or non-attendance. No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever form they may adopt to teach or practice religion. Neither a state nor the Federal Government can, openly or secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organization or groups and vice versa. In the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect "a wall of separation between Church and State." (Norman Redlich) http://www.thenation.com/doc/20001009/redlich

Ken Rich

kengrich@yahoo.ca
http://indiegospel.org


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Ken Rich
https://kenrich.me
updated by @ken-rich: 11/11/15 07:17:59AM

I believe the bottom line, which you don't need a degree to understand only a heart for God who is a realist, as we should be is that the laws of man are for a purpose, and only thru human legalities can we seperate, because in reality God cannot be actually seperated from anything just because we say so, and our faith teaches that so at best we humor those that think they can by any law or written document take God out of ANYTHING, that is absurd. We must have understanding as you explained in delicate matters. Christians who dwell in the political arena, well I feel for them because their christian integrity is constantly tested, and many times put under a microscope. Thank God for His mercy, and forgiveness, and grace. Amen?

Hi David,I will certainly agree with you on three points.It is tough to be a true Christian, or a person of integrity and morals (of any stripe), and be in the political arena.We can't take God out, I agree. However, we can take "the institutional Church" out of politics. The "institutional Church" is not God. The Church should not control the State, and the State should allow for religious freedom. Civil and religious freedom must prevail.Also, like you, I thank God for His mercy, forgiveness, and grace. We all need it!Be Blessed,Ken


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Ken Rich
https://kenrich.me

Do you believe your church speaks for God? And the biblical definition of religious is not a thing, or an institution, but an act motivated by ones faith: James 1:26,27. And if it were not for the intervention of church over the years the concience of the state may have been let off the hook so to speak in many cases. It is a touchy subject at best, and not for peaches and cream christians, but meat, and potatoes christians. We really don't know with any amount of bible study what God would say at this point in time according to the delicate issues we are faced with should He decide to post on this forum.

Hi David,I don't believe any Church institution speaks for God. The Church is not a denomination, an institution, an organization, or any such thing those are man made distinctions.The true "Church" if you will, is simply made up of people who have the Spirit of God living in them.1 Corinthians 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.1 Corinthians 6:19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God?God speaks to us through the Scriptures, and the "foolishness of preaching".1Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?Sometimes God speaks to individuals in visions, or dreams, though angelic messengers, but most commonly by his Spirit. That "inner voice", that convicts you when you sin, is his Spirit working on your conscience, guiding you.The State is not "left off the hook", if a man made institution that "claims" it speaks for God, doesn't intervene and control the State.History is littered with religious persecutions and tyranny, because of that type of thinking.


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Ken Rich
https://kenrich.me

I dont belong to any particular Christian denomination, yet I believe as a spirit filled Christian I am a member of all those who make up the bride of Christ. The New Testament teaches that we are to respect the powers that govern us and that they are in power only by Gods per-mission. One should not dictate to the other. That will come with Christs second coming when he sets up his kingdom on the recreated earth after he baptizes it with fire, the first time was with water and the second time will be with fire.John 3:5-7Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Marvel not that I said unto thee, you must be born again.Luke 3:16-17John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I comes, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.Acts 2:3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance

Thanks for Da Heads Up Ken.I hope we all learn from mistakes from the past.(~;Yrral Mallik;~)