Hi David,I didn't start this discussion. It was started by someone else, and not with the intention of finger pointing.The good news, is that Christ died for sinners and grace is free for all who ask for it.We do not need to pay indulgences to an apostate power to receive grace - for instance.


--
Ken Rich
https://kenrich.me
updated by @ken-rich: 07/12/15 09:53:02PM

The difference is actually knowing the difference between absolution, and forgiveness. People hear and praise you for your music, and you are a fallen man saved by grace? I was raised in Catholic school, next to church. My mom has been catholic all her 86 years, and has prayed in ways that would shake a lesser in faith, and understanding, and she has always been very blessed, and has never had any theological study, and is not highminded, but loves God. I have seen many miracles concerning her health of which many doctors have been wittness to. Now explain that away with your great wisdom, and knowledge of God, and what He will or won,t recognize. It is common knowledge in todays church that a priest does not have power to forgive sins. And Babylon was never a God fearing establishment. You use references outdated and totaly changed. Go visit the pope someday, and ask him if he believes he is infallable, you may be surprised to learn something you never knew, only thought you knew.

Hi David,If you wish to believe the Pope and his Prelates are infallible, that is your prerogative.If you wish to believe the doctrines and dogmas of Rome that contradict the Bible, be my guest.If you wish to be a party to the cover-up of their crimes, and pretend they are not happening, that is your right.However, I choose to deal with reality as it is, and seek the truth. That is my God given right, and at least for now, that is still allowed in this Country.I am not here to " tear down " Catholics, or anyone else. I realize that these are difficult times to be a Catholic. If you have been indoctrinated into that system, and your world view revolves around it, the revelations, scandals, and cover-ups, must be terrible for you.However, the sins of the Church are being laid bare. Despite vast sums of "hush money" being paid out, victims voices are still reaching the mainstream media.An American lawyer even tried to lay charges against Pope Benedict XVI, but he escaped them, by claiming diplomatic immunity. http://www.traditioninaction.org/bev/070bev09-07-2005.htm After all, Ratzinger was the " enforcer ", who was responsible for enforcing the Vatican's policy on sexual abuse, during the long reign of Pope Jean Paul II. The policy was drafted by in 1962 by Cardinal Alfredo Ottaviani, and it has been characterized as " a blueprint for deception " by a Larry Drivon, a lawyer for victims.Why do I bring this up? Not because I am trying to point fingers, or tear down anyone. Darren, one of the members here, started this post, with a poem which legitimately raises the question, should Catholics put their faith in Priests, or in God? In his own words "I meant to highlight the way a catholic might place more faith in their priests than God himself."I have simply been trying to express my opinion on that topic. It's nothing personal, as I have said before - some of my best friends are Catholic. I realize there are millions of good, honest, sincere people, who are part of that system.


--
Ken Rich
https://kenrich.me

Hi David,My Father was a Catholic altar boy. Your Mother was a devout Catholic. What does this prove about what the Pope's claim for themselves?A few present-day Catholics, including priests and bishops, refuse to accept papal infallibility as a matter of faith, such as the theologian Hans Kng, author of Infallible? An Inquiry, and historian Garry Wills, author of Papal Sin. A recent (19891992) survey of Catholics from multiple countries (the USA, Austria, Canada, Ecuador, France, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Korea, Peru, Spain and Switzerland), aged 15 to 25 showed that 36.9% accepted the teaching on papal infallibility, 36.9% denied it, and 26.2% said they didn't know of it. (Source: Report on surveys of the International Marian Research Institute, by Johann G. Roten, S.M.)


--
Ken Rich
https://kenrich.me

Hi David,You missed my point with Babylon. You think of literal Babylon, and I speak of symbolic Babylon.Protestant Bible scholars, have taught for hundreds of years, that Babylon was the code name for Rome - the city on the seven hills, which rules over the Kings of men (Rev. 17).City of Seven Hills usually refers to Rome (Wikipedia).Purple and scarlet are her colors, and she is decked with gold and precious stones, just as the Bible said. Her control over the Kings of Europe is a matter of record.


--
Ken Rich
https://kenrich.me

I do not claim to be infallible, the Popes and Prelates do.I claim to be a sinner in need of God's grace, not the Pope's absolution.I agree with you that other Christian institutions are corrupt. The Mother of Harlots, has many harlot daughters. However, none so corrupt as their mother.None but the Catholic Church claim infallibility, claim apostolic succession, sell indulgences, forbid marriage, etc.While it is true that the sexual abuse exposed in modern times, sometimes occurs in the rest of society, and in other Churches, it is rampant and out of proportion in the Catholic Church. Father Donald Cozzens wrote that several studies have concluded that about 50% of priests and seminarians are gay. "Vatican threatens gay purge of priesthood," The Data Lounge, 2002-MAR-6This is not "finger pointing" just a statement of fact given for one reason - the issue of this thread is - should a Catholic put their faith in Priests? My opinion is no, they should put their faith in God, and leave that corrupt system.


--
Ken Rich
https://kenrich.me

I do not beleive any man is inffalible, and I do not prefer one christian label to another. These are seperation, and totaly unbiblical, but answer me this. How do you personally know beyond a shadow of doubt that what you have been taught, and the way you interpet Gods word is the absolute right way, because like it or not, admit it or not that is exactly what you are saying everytime you call on your own perception, and respond with history, and then biblical text to align what is definatelty an attack against other christians. Pope John Paul did more towards peace than any other president in history, and had more of an impact for peace than any other person in history, and that is a fact! And you did not respond when I pointed out how Paul refered to himself as father of beleivers?? You see no matter how much history we know or how many years we study scripture we don,t have the mind of God, and what we do know would fit on the head of a pin in comparrison. How many protestants lean on their pastors, in the way catholics lean on their priests? How many chritians worship T.D. Jakes who rants , and raves, running back and forth on stage. That is method preaching, not spirit.

Hi David,If, as you say, you do not believe that any man is infallible, then you can't be a Catholic. The Pope claims to be infallible, and as a Catholic you are required to obey him as infallible - or you are declared anathema . We teach and define that it is a dogma Divinely revealed that the Roman pontiff when he speaks ex cathedra, that is when in discharge of the office of pastor and doctor of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding faith or morals to be held by the universal Church, by the Divine assistance promised to him in Blessed Peter, is possessed of that infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer willed that his Church should be endowed in defining doctrine regarding faith or morals, and that therefore such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves and not from the consent of the Church irreformable.So then, should anyone, which God forbid, have the temerity to reject this definition of ours: let him be anathema. (see Denziger 1839). Wikipedia I did respond when you pointed out how Paul referred to himself as father of believers, but my response (which was time consuming) has gone missing (I assume deleted).Your comment (above) touches on the difference between Protestant Christians and Catholics.For the Catholic, you are asked to " check your brain at the door " and become an " intellectual corpse ". You must accept the teaching of the Magisterium, no matter how unBiblical, illogical, ludicrous, or evil, it is. " The task of interpreting the Word of God authentically has been entrusted solely to the Magisterium of the Church, that is, to the Pope and to the bishops in communion with him. "[Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2nd ed. 1997, pt. 1, sect. 1, ch. 2, art. 2, III [#100]This (in large part), is what sparked the Reformation in the first place. Luther nailed 95 Biblical proofs, against the selling of indulgences, to the door of the Church in Wittenberg Germany. He insisted that, since forgiveness was God's alone to grant, those (Pope and Prelates) who claimed that indulgences absolved buyers from all punishments and granted them salvation were in error. Christians, he said, must not slacken in following Christ on account of such false assurances. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther For a Christian, there is but one teacher Christ. This touches on what I wrote in my missing post.Matthew 23 8-10 But you are not to be called Rabbi, for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth father , for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called teacher, for you have one Teacher, the Christ . "I am aware of the " proof texts " Catholic apologists use, to make Christ's statement of no effect. However, his intent was to denounce those who set themselves up as great, and Lord it over others, just as the Popes and prelates do. Christ followed his statement with these words - The greatest among you will be your servant. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted. That the Popes exalt themselves is a matter of record, and there are reams of statements like this one: I am all in all and above all, so that God Himself, and I, the Vicar of God, hath both one consistory, and I am able to do almost all that God can do . . . Wherefore, if those things that I do be said not to be done of man, but of God. WHAT CAN YOU MAKE ME BUT GOD? Again, if prelates of the Church be called and counted of Constantine for gods, I then, being above all prelates, seem by this reason to be ABOVE ALL GODS. Wherefore, no marvel if it be in my power to dispense with all things, yea, with the precepts of Christ . See Decret. Par Distinct 96 Ch. 7 Edit Lugd. 1661. Antichrist Exalts Himself Above God So, getting back to the initial question of this thread should Catholics put their faith in their priests, or in God - my answer is God (the true God of the Bible, not the Pope).Some Catholics, in my native land, put their faith in their Priest/Father, and were raped by him ( Father Hickey for example).Just as we saw in the Boston cases, under Cardinal Law, the directive from Rome was to cover it up. They moved the Priests around, kept them on the payroll as Shepherds of the flock, and let it happen again, and again, and again.Ratzinger (the present Pope) was responsible for the cover up , since at the time, he oversaw the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the Vatican office that once presided over the Inquisition, and is now tasked with enforcing policy.These atrocities, have been repeated over and over again, all over the world. How many times must it happen, before Catholics will accept the fact that their leaders and Church are corrupt, and come out of Babylon (cf. Rev.17).I don't say any of this to offend, condemn, finger point, or any such thing. I am simply stating the facts, hoping that your eyes will be opened - also to adequately respond to your points, and the initial topic of the thread.I also agree with you, that many Protestants, also lean on their leaders too much, and need to be more like the Bereans - proving things for themselves.Acts 17:11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. One last point, you seem to think that one should overlook, or accept falsehoods, for the sake of unity. The Bible does not teach this - it is false ecumenism.Biblical unity, stands in stark contrast to the ecumenism promoted by Rome. We are to be in unity with the Father (John. 17:22), spiritual unity (17:5; 10:30), unity in Truth (17:17), and in agape Love (17:23,26). For those truly in Christ, this unity already exists. The world sees hundreds of denominations; God sees the One Church, the Body of Christ, which includes some from many denominations. The only way to be in the true Church is to be placed into the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit in regeneration: ...the Body is one .. . .all the members are one . . .for by one Spirit we were all baptized into one Body (1 Cor. 12:12-13). You are all one in Christ Jesus (Gal. 3:28). What Is Wrong With "Ecumenical"? With love and respect,Ken


--
Ken Rich
https://kenrich.me

Well I was raised in catholic school before the age of real reason, and I now stand on His word. Paul was approached by some believers that bowed, and worshipped, and he rebuked them, and set them straight, and I beleive the pope should do the same when people kneel and kiss his ring. Billy Graham has always inspired me, and when I heard his story, and how he came to Christ I was moved. I am not a catholic, and the only label I wear is inside because I have been sealed by the Holy Ghost. I like Chuck Swindalls book Grace Awakening, and Max Lucado's devotionals, I don't believe Pastor Haggie is full of the spirit, only filled with himself, doom and gloom, just an observation. Anyway I like the last paragraph, because that is the point. Bless you, and thanks for sharing. David

Actually in prison I was deamed dorm pastor, and awaited the night bible study with 4 volunteers, Baxter Allen from Leon Valley Baptist Church, Pastor Mario Nava of Living Faith Church, and a few more, and they refered to me as a Berean. The last 2 years of my time I drew near to them, and studied relentlessly, and 7 years later we are very close , and I know they are commissioned by God, and they are blessed with good strong ministries. My own ministry is about Jesus, and the gospel, and the story of how He changed my life forever. I met Nicky Cruise years back, and was at one time led by a San Antionio police officer not to jail, but to Freddy Garcias house. I sat down with him, and his sons, and we broke bread, and I listened, and learned, and a great seed was planted by Freddie, and the actions of the officer who opted to get me help, rather than lock me up. A few years later, and a little more misery I finaly came full circle, by the grace of God.