Hi David,I am sorry, but you are quite mistaken about the rosary being about Jesus and not Mary, and being all gospel prayers taken directly from the gospels .The following is the Hail Holy Queen prayer, that is, the ending of the Rosary:"Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, hail, our life, our sweetness, and our hope! ...Turn then, most gracious advocate , ...O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary !"The Hail Holy Queen prayer -- which proclaims Mary as "our" LIFE , SWEETNESS, HOPE and MOST GRACIOUS ADVOCATE -- has an official endorsement from Vatican II .By calling Mary "our life," present-day Catholicism is saying indirectly, through the Rosary, that she has a role in our salvation! According to the Bible, this is "another gospel" (Gal. 1:8,9)Here are official statements from Vatican II on the subject. ...filial love towards her who is the Mother of the Church and of consecrated souls. This love for the Virgin will be manifested with the celebration of her feasts and, in particular, with daily prayer in her honour, especially the Rosary . (Vatican Council II, Vol. 2, p.251.) ...when the family gathering becomes a time of prayer the Rosary is a frequent and favoured manner of praying'. In this way, authentic devotion to Mary , which finds expression in sincere love and generous imitation of the Blessed Virgin's interior spiritual attitude, constitutes a special instrument for nourishing loving communion in the family and for developing conjugal and family spirituality. For she who is the Mother of Christ and of the Church is in a special way the Mother of Christian families, of domestic Churches" (ibid., pp. 865, 866).What you seem to be overlooking is that the Bible teaches that Jesus is our advocate, not Mary. He is the only way to the Father, not Mary. The Gospel is about faith in Jesus, he died for us, not Mary.Mary was blessed to have been chosen to bear him, but the Bible in no way elevates her to co-redeemer, advocate, or a helper in our salvation, in any way, shape, or form.Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant, not Mary. Your relationship with Jesus should be direct and personal, not through a Priest, Saint, Mary, or anyone else.Hebrews 4 14-16 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens's Jesus the Son of God , let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. ...Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need. Did Jesus teach us to pray to Mary? Isn't the Lord's Prayer to our Father, not Mary? Did he tell us to ask for things in her name, or his name?Mary may have been a fine woman, she was chosen to bear Jesus, but she is not Jesus. She can't save you, she didn't die for you, and no where does the Bible teach that she is a mediator between God and man.Rome is teaching a different Gospel - flee from Babylon! I say it in love, with an honest desire to see you in the Kingdom. "The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an 'epitome of the whole Gospel,' express this devotion to the Virgin Mary" (Catechism of the Catholic Church, Liguori Publications, p.253.) In stark contrast to the Rosary (with its "mysteries") being the "epitome of the whole Gospel" as Rome put it, the Apostle Paul clearly outlined an entirely different Gospel, which he preached -- the one that brings true salvation. Please note that Paul never mentioned Mary directly or indirectly! Similarly, Peter, who was supposedly the first pope, NEVER mentioned Mary at all in either of his two books of the New Testament. Quotes are from "Born Again" Catholics And The Rosary Also see - The Rosary is Blasphemy Against God! With love and respect,Ken


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Ken Rich
https://kenrich.me
updated by @ken-rich: 07/12/15 09:50:44PM

I have been following this conversation with much interest and was moved to point out a fact that you both seem to have over looked. The bible tells me that Mary indeed did give birth to the Christ and this is recognized as a miracle by all, yet she was only a human and a vassal that God decided to use to introduce his son to the world. Mary died and she sleeps awaiting the resurrection just like the rest of the dead. So then, who was it that appeared to the three girls of Fatima? In my humble the Fatima apparitions are a deception, not of GOD.2 Corinthians 11:13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.I say again, let no one think me a fool.There for, an angel of GOD would not deceive anyone into believing that they were one of the dead. The Bible tells us that the dead sleep.

Hi Paul,

Glad that you joined us once again. The " state of the dead " is something hotly disputed among Christians, some believing as you do, that they sleep with no conscience thought until they are resurrected.

Others, interpret differently and see the dead as " absent from the body, present with the Lord ", in a different sort of intermediate state, before the resurrection.

However, one thing all scholars agree on, is that there is absolutely no Scriptural evidence, for the bodily assumption of Mary, as taught by Rome. This dogma was denounced by early Popes, and it's origin is with Gnosticism, not the Bible, or early Christians. It serves to bring into Christianity the worship of " the Queen of Heaven " as practiced by ancient pagans, before there ever was a Church.

Catholic authors readily admit that the Assumption is not explicitly taught in Scripture. In the biblical narrative, Mary is last mentioned in Acts 1 where she is found praying with the other disciples before Pentecost. After that, the Bible is silent about her life and death...

The Catholic Encyclopedia admits that the first genuine written references to the Assumption come from authors who lived in the sixth to the eight centuries ...

Catholic theology has exalted Mary to the heavens, and it is therefore natural for Catholics to look to her for their spiritual needs . O most sweet Lady and our Mother, thou hast already left the earth and reached thy kingdom, where, as Queen, thou art enthroned From the high throne, then, to which thou art exalted, turn, O Mary, thy compassionate eyes upon us, and pity us. (Of the Assumption of Mary, St. Alphonsus de Liguori).

Despite their protestations to the contrary, the sad truth is that such Marian devotion detracts from that simple faith and devotion to the Lord Jesus Christ . The Scripture explicitly speaks of Jesus, who having lived a sinless life, died for sinners, was buried and raised from the death, and after forty days He ascended into Heaven, where He is reigning in glory, interceding for His people. Compassion and pity is found only when we have recourse to the Lord Jesus. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him (not Mary), seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them . For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens (Hebrews 7:25,26)

Quotes above from The Assumption of Mary Refuted!

Tertullian says that we can know if God has done something by validating it from Scripture. Not to be able to do so invalidates any claim that a teaching has been revealed by God. This comes back again to the patristic principle of sola scriptura, a principle universally adhered to in the early Church. But one which has been repudiated by the Roman Church and which has resulted in its embracing and promoting teachings, such as the assumption of Mary, which were never taught in the early Church and which have no Scriptural backing .

The only grounds the Roman Catholic faithful have for believing in the teaching of the assumption is that a supposedly infallible Church declares it. But given the above facts the claim of infallibility is shown to be completely groundless. How can a Church which is supposedly infallible promote teachings which the early Church condemned as heretical? Whereas an early papal decree anathematized those who believed the teaching of an apocryphal Gospel, now papal decrees condemn those who disbelieve it. The conclusion has to be that teachings such as Marys assumption are the teachings and traditions of men, not the revelation of God.

Taken from - THE ASSUMPTION OF MARY (A Roman Catholic Dogma Originating with Heretics and Condemned as Heretical by 2 Popes in the 5th and 6th Centuries)


With love and respect,

Ken

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Ken Rich
https://kenrich.me

Here are some of the scripture verses that tells me that the dead sleep and have no knowledge of anything.Psalms 115:17The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.Eccles 9:5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion forever in anything that is done under the sunPsalms 6:5For in death there is no remembrance of you: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?Isaiah 38For the grave cannot praise you, death cannot celebrate you: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.Psalm 146His breath goes forth, he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.Psalms 13 Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;1 Corinthians 15:51Behold, I show you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.1 Thessalonians 4:14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.John 11:12These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, our friend Lazarus sleeps; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleeps, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spoke of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.Matthew 27:50Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 3And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.2 Samuel 7:12And when thy days be fulfilled, and you shall sleep with thy fathers.

Hi Paul,The "state of the dead" is a separate issue, and you should start a new forum post on the subject, if you wish to pursue it.The reason that argument does not work here, is the Roman Catholic doctrine of the assumption of Mary teaches that she was assumed body and soul into heaven either without dying , or shortly after death.The Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life , was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory (Munificentissimus Deus, Pope Pius XII, 1950).In other words, the wording is ambiguous enough to include translation before death, as in the case of Enoch and Elijah. Some Roman Catholics go so far as to teach that Mary was resurrected on the third day, just like Jesus, and that Mary ascended into Heaven, just like Jesus. What is the Assumption of Mary? There is already a blog post by Sarah Mazzie called DO YOU HAVE A HUMAN SPIRIT???????? which touches on " the state of the dead ". She supports your view, and would (more than likely), take your side in a forum discussion on it.Stay Blessed,Ken


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Ken Rich
https://kenrich.me

So then you do not beleive in eternal life, and you blank out the fact that at His command things happen not according to our understanding or great knowledge of scripture. You and Ken fail to the truth that God is greater than the bible, and not geared only by what is written, and we cannot reason things away based on what we know, that is not faith, that is vanity. Did not during the transfiguration two dead people appear to whom GOD chose to reveal them to. And if you think the dead are just asleep then you do not believe anyone goes to haven at their death, which leans more to a doctorine of purgatory??? So what do you actually beleive, or are you confused? I see confusion. " FOR WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD THAT HE MAY INSTRUCT HIM?"If you read and study the bible for 100 years that does not contain His power, and bible clearly says FOR GOD ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE, so opinions and study does not restrict what He will or won't do. That is not rocket science, it means what it says.

It is not about who agrees and supports opinions it is about God being greater than our intellect, and understanding. We know that GOD is greater than ideology or forums. everyone has a human spirit. and I have never heard any catholic say that they beleive she rose on the third day so now you put an extra twist on truth. But I have heard of people being so heavenly minded they are no earthly good. I learned that from a protestant, Hmmmm? of course I don't beleive it because that would cancel out John 3:16 Just say you guys are anti catholic and be done with it, and move on to something more praisworthy than further dividing the body of Christ?

Hi David,

No one here has said they do not believe in eternal life, so why make that accusation?

No one here disputes whether or not God is greater than the Bible, or whether all he does, or doesn't do, is contained in the Bible, so why make that accusation?

What Protestants contend, is that we can know truth by validating it from Scripture. Not to be able to do so, invalidates any claim that a teaching has been revealed by God.

God chose to reveal the unchanging gospel to us, and as the Apostle Paul said, any other gospel is false . So we have been given a way to verify the truth about salvation, by comparing new events and teachings, to what is recorded in Scripture.

Galatians 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!

This comes back again to the patristic principle of sola scriptura, a principle universally adhered to in the early Church. But one which has been repudiated by the Roman Church and which has resulted in its embracing and promoting teachings, such as the assumption of Mary, which were never taught in the early Church and which have no Scriptural backing . THE ASSUMPTION OF MARY

So, by refusing to accept what God has explicitly revealed as truth, as the standard by which to confirm or reject new claims by men, or apparitions, Rome has accepted and promoted teachings that contradict the Gospel , as preached by Paul and the Apostles. This is the contention. Don't side step the issue, and go off on other subjects - this is the crux of the matter.

The Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox Churches teach that the Scriptures are not the only infallible source of Christian doctrine (sola scriptura). For them Scripture is but one of three equal authorities; the other two being Sacred Tradition and the episcopacy. Wikipedia

Without the Word of God as their final authority, the Popes ended up making fools of themselves by claiming infallibility, while at the same time contradicting themselves on this very subject.

The assumption of Mary was derived from Gnostic literature and Pope Gelasius explicitly condemns the authors as well as their writings and the teachings which they promote and all who follow them. And significantly, this entire decree and its condemnation was reaffirmed by Pope Hormisdas in the sixth century around A.D. 520. (Migne Vol. 62. Col. 537-542). These facts prove that the early Church viewed the assumption teaching, not as a legitimate expression of the pious belief of the faithful but as a heresy worthy of condemnation. THE ASSUMPTION OF MARY

Yet this very teaching that earlier "infallible" Popes declared to be heresy, was declared a dogma of the Catholic faith by another "infallible" Pope.

The Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory (Munificentissimus Deus, Pope Pius XII, 1950).

So my Brother, the issue is - are you going to believe the gospel according to Rome, or the gospel according to the Bible? If Rome, will it be the two "infallible" Popes who declared it heresy, or the one "infallible" Pope who made it official dogma of the Catholic faith?

With love and respect,

Ken

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Ken Rich
https://kenrich.me

Hi David,I am not anti-Catholic, I am simply pro truth. I love the Catholic people enough to tell them the truth, even though it is unpopular to do so. Does this make me your enemy?Is it divisive to insist on truth, or should we accept heresies in order to achieve unity? That is not the unity the Bible teaches, John 4:24 ...in Spirit and in truth.Both Jesus and Paul refuted false teachings. Paul not only fiercely debated the Jews, rebuked the Judaizers, confronted the false brethren, but even opposed Peter to his face. Did he accept heresy, to achieve unity?Titus 1:9 hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.You are wandering off into personal attacks again, please stick to the subject at hand.With love and respect,Ken


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Ken Rich
https://kenrich.me

Hello David (Peace be with you)I think that you may have misunderstood what I was saying. Yes, some that were in the flesh were taken right to heaven, but that is the exception not the rule.The scripture verses that I posted clearly say that the dead sleep. Did you take the time to read them?And how can you say that I dont believe in eternal life?For my hope is in the resurrection of all that sleep.Acts 24:14So worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.John 5:28Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forththose who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.The bible clearly teaches that the righteous dead will be raised on the last day. And, NO, I am not confused nor do I believe in purgatory. My stand is on the word of GOD. I feel insulted by your words!My efforts here are to discuss not to debate with you.I believe what the scriptures say, and they say clearly that the dead sleep and shall be raised to eternal life.It says, that we will not all sleep but those that are alive at his coming shall be changed, then caught up to meet with the Lord in the air and so shall we be forever with the Lord, Thats eternal life.1 Corinthians 15: 51- 53Behold, I show you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.May GODS greatest blessings be upon you and yours.